Meeting/IRC/2011Jan20

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    2010/11/08
*** Users on #smc-project: j4v4m4n santhosh ershad apeter Vivek Polar| CIA-98
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*** #smc-project was created on ശനി 2007/10/13 08:54:20  IST
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<jinsbond007> hope I am not late  [20:59]
<jinsbond007> j4v4m4n: apeter santhosh around?  [21:00]
<santhosh> j4v4m4n: എന്താ പരിപാടി?
<apeter> hello all
<apeter> good to see atleast a few :)
<apeter> need to conduct FUEL for Malayalam and hence thought to have a
	 discussion about it  [21:01]
<santhosh> ഇത്രേം പേരു മത്യോ?
<apeter> atleast lets discuss things and then send the details to list  [21:02]
<santhosh> http://wiki.smc.org.in/Glossary
<apeter> j4v4m4n, ?
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<apeter> santhosh, we have already discussed and planned to have the
	 FUEL... :)
<j4v4m4n> santhosh: jinsbond007 apeter നമസ്കാരം  [21:03]
<apeter> നമസ്ക്കാരം
<jinsbond007> j4v4m4n: ah finally, നമസ്കാരം :)
<apeter> now things to discuss is when to have, who all to be invited for this
	 meeting? I mean any language experts ... 
<apeter> what say?  [21:04]
<j4v4m4n> apeter: ഏതെങ്കലും സ്ഥലവും സമയവും നിര്‍ദ്ദേശിയ്ക്കൂ
<apeter> j4v4m4n, jinsbond007 santhosh I was thinking whether we can have this
	 during NITC meet?  [21:05]
ERC> /nick ജാവാമാന്‍
<apeter> is it possible?
*** ജാവാമ is an
    erroneous nickname
<apeter> what do you guys think?
<santhosh> apeter: physical meaning required?
<apeter> santhosh, yes
<j4v4m4n> apeter: I will be in NITC from 31st Jan to 6th Feb
* apeter has requested Rajesh to join
<j4v4m4n> santhosh: yes, especially if we are onvolving language experts
								        [21:06]
* apeter has requested Rajesh to join this online meeting
<j4v4m4n> santhosh: we can keep irc open as an option for people who cannot
	  make it physically  [21:07]
<apeter> j4v4m4n, I agree with you :)
<jinsbond007> j4v4m4n: santhosh when is fossmeet?  [21:08]
<santhosh> apeter: j4v4m4n, can we baseline our glossary? or do we need to get
	   comments on the entries in offline way?
<jinsbond007> I don't remember in feb or march?
<j4v4m4n> apeter: but Feb first week would be too soon for arranging a meeting
	  of this sort
<apeter> jinsbond007, 4th-6th Feb
<jinsbond007> ok
<apeter> j4v4m4n, we shall give it a try..
<santhosh> such as, getting the comments in printed copies
<jinsbond007> anyway, I won't be available for any physical meetings due to my
	      busy schedule for I think some 4 months  [21:09]
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: we can do both as I mentioned
<apeter> j4v4m4n, if its too much of inconvenience we shall postpond to 2nd or
	 3rd week Feb
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: physical component has to be there
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<santhosh> j4v4m4n: btw, by language experts, ആരെയാ ഉദ്ദേശിക്കുന്നതു്? കമ്പ്യൂട്ടറില്‍
	   മലയാളം ആദ്യമായി കാണുന്നവര്‍ക്ക് പ്രായോഗികമായി നിര്‍ദ്ദേശങ്ങള്‍ തരാന്‍ കഴിയുമോ?  [21:11]
<rajeshr> Hi Everybody
<j4v4m4n> rajeshr: hi
<santhosh> the contexts are completely different
<apeter> hi rajeshr 
<rajeshr> Sorry for late!
<apeter> rajeshr, no worries :)
<jinsbond007> j4v4m4n: apeter first these people should know the translation
	      and why we do it the way we do
<santhosh> I am not sayin that they should know how to use computers in
	   malayalam
<j4v4m4n> santhosh: but most of them would have familiarity with computers
<santhosh> but minimal exposure and introduction is required right?  [21:12]
<apeter> rajeshr, maybe you can give an idea about FUEL. How do you normally
	 conduct the meet etc etc etc
<jinsbond007> j4v4m4n: the familiarity I don't think is not to be with
	      computer but the malayalam interface in computer and who are the
	      in tented audience
<rajeshr> okay apeter!  [21:13]
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<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: santhosh we should have normal computer users too, the
	  idea is to get some kind of acceptance when people see experts are
	  there in the list, though I agree, it may not be necessary
<rajeshr> As we are from translation/localization filed we know some problem
	  during trans
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<rajeshr> one is of standadization and consistency
<j4v4m4n> the idea is computer users, who are not net savvy and would not be
	  able to come to an irc meeting for whatever reason should be
	  involved  [21:15]
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<santhosh> disconnected.. did somebody answer my qn? sorry
<jinsbond007> j4v4m4n: I am not against involving them, in fact most of the
	      time, we does consult people like hussain sir off the list
<jinsbond007> sebinaj: welcome
<j4v4m4n> sebinaj: hi
<sebinaj> hi
<apeter> hi sebinaj :)  [21:16]
<sebinaj> was struggling with the lost passphrase :D
<sebinaj> problems of registering a nick
<sebinaj> can i read the log?
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: not just hussain sir, anyone interested in seeing
	  Malayalam in computer should be given a chance to say their opinion
<j4v4m4n> sebinaj: you could have logged in without password :)  [21:17]
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<santhosh> j4v4m4n: thats what. we cannot get words contribution from people
	   who are very new to computers
<jinsbond007> j4v4m4n: anyway I guess we both got the point :)
* j4v4m4n copying minutes on the wiki
<santhosh> and even if they give it will be out of context
<santhosh> what I would suggest is this  [21:18]
<jinsbond007> my point was to use their expertise effectively, we should be
	      able to give them an idea of what the interface is
<santhosh> the FUEL program should have 2 parts
<jinsbond007> and who are the supposed audience for the Malayalam interface
<santhosh> one is a training(introduction) to all participants. say we conduct
	   in an arts college  [21:19]
<santhosh> in the second part, or as part of the traning, we show the
	   interface to them. ask them to use
<santhosh> get their user experience suggestion
<santhosh> I hope once they see applications in malayalam, naturally comments
	   will come
<apeter> rajeshr, any comments ?
<santhosh> rather than giving a word list  [21:20]
<santhosh> in that way, both of us can benefit
<santhosh> we get a localized application reviewed
<santhosh> and additions to our glossary/fule  [21:21]
<santhosh> they get training
<santhosh> comments?
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<j4v4m4n> minutes http://wiki.smc.org.in/Meeting/IRC/2011Jan20  [21:22]
<rajeshr> apeter, I think translation of anything cannot be left for normal
	  audience, they can have several suggestions
<santhosh> rajeshr: correct
<rajeshr> so i Think first we should sit with passionate localisers,
	  translators, lingusits, journalist and create a good interface
<jinsbond007> rajeshr: if we are doing translations for them, they should
	      actually be involved na?
<j4v4m4n> anoop: hi  [21:23]
<rajeshr> I don't think we have any problem in involving them, but out of one
	  workshop like FUEL we can come with a list where most of the people
	  can be agrre  [21:24]
<rajeshr> like what we did for : http://svn.fedorahosted.org/svn/fuel/
<rajeshr> https://fedorahosted.org/fuel/
<anoop> hii
<apeter> hello anoop   [21:25]
<j4v4m4n> santhosh: we started our glossary from gnome glossary, but gnome
	  glossary was never maintained, so we were essentially forking the
	  glossary
<rajeshr> j4v4m4n, FUEL is not exactly a glossary...its strings coming out of
	  3-4 levels of menus from major apps  [21:26]
<santhosh> j4v4m4n: our aim is better interface, right? discussing around a
	   wordlist will be completely out of context. so introduce malayalam
	   desktop the lang experts, get their feedback
<j4v4m4n> santhosh: with actively maintained fuel list, shared among many
	  languages, we can have an uptodate glossary, my earlier lack of
	  interest to fuel was because I thought we could keep gnome glossary
	  updated, but that effort did not reach anywhere
<rajeshr> so it is one type of review as well
<santhosh> naturally that will become our corrected commonly used translations
<rajeshr> we have selected strings from pidgin, firefox, email clients,
	  OpenOffice, gdm, menus etc and combined in a list!  [21:27]
<j4v4m4n> santhosh: yes, I agree that is important, but which should be the
	  starting point? a commnly used words list or some localised app?
								        [21:28]
<santhosh> rajeshr: in previous fuel meetings, how was it done? preparing a
	   word list and discussing one by one? or was that meeting conducted
	   by introducing those applications and current translation to
	   participants?
<j4v4m4n> santhosh: we need both  [21:29]
<rajeshr> word list is already there:
<rajeshr> http://svn.fedorahosted.org/svn/fuel/fuel_pot/
<santhosh> j4v4m4n: I would suggest some commonly used localized application
<j4v4m4n> santhosh: ok so lets do that first in a meeting - just to get them
	  started and then work on the word list
<rajeshr> santhosh, we sat together for 2 days and discussded one by one 
								        [21:30]
<jinsbond007> j4v4m4n: I will agree with santhosh, they need to see where the
	      string goes   [21:31]
<rajeshr> eg. https://fedorahosted.org/fuel/wiki/fuel-maithili
<j4v4m4n> rajeshr: lets do an initial introductory meeting, and then fuel
	  list, what say?  [21:32]
<rajeshr> santhosh, j4v4m4n, jinsbond007: we have already conetxt for the
	  strings :
	  https://fedorahosted.org/fuel/attachment/wiki/attachments/Fuel_context.ods?format=raw
<rajeshr> j4v4m4n, its upon ml community how you can go
<apeter> I agree with j4v4m4n   [21:33]
<j4v4m4n> rajeshr: that has good context information and not a wordlist
								        [21:34]
ERC> /not just a wordlist/
*** not: Unknown command
<rajeshr> j4v4m4n,
	  http://svn.fedorahosted.org/svn/fuel/fuel_pot/fuel_en_US.pot
<rajeshr> ^^
<j4v4m4n>  /not just a wordlis/
<j4v4m4n> rajeshr: yes we can use spreadsheet for discussion adn po for entry
								        [21:35]
<rajeshr> this is word list and that ods file is context for that one
<jinsbond007> rajeshr: the work is great kudos :)
<rajeshr> thanks jinsbond007 !  [21:36]
<rajeshr> http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/guide/existing_glossaries
<santhosh> I think a spreadsheet is not enough. The problem is the proposed
	   participants will not get any idea what is is meant by this
	   File->New->... etc
<rajeshr> this project consider FUEL project as a terminology dev project
<santhosh> we cannot do such assumption about their knowledge about the
	   applications. Live experience with the applications or sitting with
	   somebody who demo it is required  [21:37]
<santhosh> sebinaj: ?
<jinsbond007> santhosh: that I agree
<jinsbond007> they need to see the application
<jinsbond007> sebinaj: ershad anoop any comments?
<rajeshr> santhosh, right we shd give demo  [21:38]
<rajeshr> we did in Hindi:
	  https://fedorahosted.org/fuel/wiki/fuel-hindi-photovoice
<j4v4m4n> santhosh: yes, so lets do an intital session introducing people to
	  localised environments and ask for live feedback and a second
	  session for fuel list
<jinsbond007> j4v4m4n: in a single day?  [21:39]
<ershad> jinsbond007: I lost track in between and i'm yet to understand what
	 FUEL really is and how it works :)
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: no many days apart
<jinsbond007> ok
<santhosh> "Outline -  Open office -Oocalc – Data – Outline. You can create an
	   outline of your data."
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: first in introduction, I can assume many would not be
	  using a malayalam interface
<santhosh> unless we demo it, this does not make any sense
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<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: it would act as a kind of trigger and when we say they
	  can chnage translation they don't like it would be channelising
	  their frustration or unhappiness to positively engaging with
	  community to improve translation quality
<jinsbond007> santhosh: the problem is again an outline comes from some other
	      application
<anoop> now i am reading about FUEL
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<jinsbond007> j4v4m4n: the thing we should not forget is, its not a fancy
	      project but for increasing accessibility   [21:41]
<jinsbond007> j4v4m4n: they should understand who the target audience is :)
								        [21:42]
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<jinsbond007> j4v4m4n: after the first workshop, then another workshop to
	      teach them how to effectively channelize their frustration?
								        [21:43]
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<sebinaj> i didn't knew, what fuel is. was reading about it.   [21:44]
<jinsbond007> sebinaj: hope got an idea, the thing is, you don't really need
	      to know what fuel is, its more about how we should go about with
	      translations  [21:45]
<jinsbond007> sebinaj: fuel is a way to standardize the translations
<sebinaj> hmm... thanks jinsbond007  [21:46]
<santhosh> can somebody update the logs, i missed some parts
<anoop> fuel is way to standardize the localized strings in different
	apps. right?  [21:47]
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: first workshop would cover how to channelise part - ie,
	  get involved with the community
<rajeshr> sebinaj, pl visit this article as well:
	  http://www.linux.com/archive/feature/149038
<santhosh> j4v4m4n: +1
<santhosh> j4v4m4n: so that should introduce the localized desktop to them
<jinsbond007> j4v4m4n: second is actually translation workshop
<j4v4m4n> santhosh: sanal_madatheth minutes here
	  http://wiki.smc.org.in/Meeting/IRC/2011Jan20  [21:48]
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: first meet would cover introduction and translation
	  workshops, second one is then sitting for fuel wordlist  [21:49]
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: santhosh by second meeting they should have an idea
<j4v4m4n> first meeting should demo all applications used in fule list and
	  encourage people to use Malayalam interface in their home systems,
	  and for actual fule wordlist discussion we should only invite people
	  who actually use a Malayalam interface or who have not used computer
	  yet  [21:50]
<santhosh> j4v4m4n: but practically, this will work only if we can conduct two
	   such meetings in same place with same audience  [21:51]
<santhosh> so how to go about that  [21:52]
<j4v4m4n> santhosh: yes, only that will be useful
<jinsbond007> santhosh: I was just going to say that :)
<apeter> lets have the first meeting at nitc
<apeter> will that work?
<jinsbond007> it will work if we use the same host to some extent I guess
<j4v4m4n> apeter: it should work, but we need to publicise and get maximum
	  people to participate  [21:53]
<jinsbond007> but still getting same audience will be difficult, but not
	      impossible
<santhosh> if we can conduct such program in association with an "arts
	   college", i think it would work
<apeter> j4v4m4n, we can.. we have another two weeks in hand
<santhosh> malayalam dept. of an arts college
<jinsbond007> j4v4m4n: especially people who use malayalam interface and not
	      used computer  [21:54]
<apeter> santhosh, any college suggestion?
<jinsbond007> santhosh: then we need to think about infrastructure too
<apeter> we can invite them to nitc for the initial meeting
<jinsbond007> what do we need to conduct work shop and all
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: for second part, the only requirement is people who are
	  already using Malayalam interface, that means even if some people
	  missed first meeting or some people started using Malayalam
	  interface after first meeting, they can still come for second
	  meeting, only condition for second meeting is, we won't entertain
	  any new Malayalam interface users at all
<jinsbond007> j4v4m4n: ok  [21:55]
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: I mean those who would see a Malayalam interface for
	  the first time at the second meeting is a no no  [21:56]
<santhosh> we should see some colleges around calicut 
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: but if they have never used a computer, that should be
	  fine
<jinsbond007> santhosh: the college in calicut, where we conducted a camp?
<jinsbond007> what was it devagiri college?
<apeter> j4v4m4n, you will be there from 30th right? will you be able to
	 invite malayalam dept from any arts college in calicut?
<j4v4m4n> santhosh: fossmeet advantage is that, they are already getting a
	  good crowd assembled, why not use it? Hari Vishnu also can join us
	  in NITC  [21:57]
<j4v4m4n> apeter: I will be busy with Chamba project, I can only spare time
	  for actual meeting
<j4v4m4n> apeter: Sooraj Kenoth and Mahesh Mangalat should be able to help
	  with that  [21:58]
<apeter> j4v4m4n, okay will get that done then  [21:59]
<jinsbond007> so we agreed on it?
<jinsbond007> apeter: can you summarize?
<j4v4m4n> apeter: talk to fossmeet folks if they can give us one session
<jinsbond007> we can move to next item then :)
<j4v4m4n> apeter: you know VA Amarnath, right?  [22:00]
<apeter> j4v4m4n, okay. will do that tomorrow
<apeter> j4v4m4n, no I dont :(
<j4v4m4n> apeter: no problem just mail them, keep me in cc
<apeter> j4v4m4n, sure will do that  [22:01]
<j4v4m4n> apeter: send it to fossmeet list
<apeter> alrught
<j4v4m4n> apeter: ok summarise the plan
<apeter> j4v4m4n, send mail to smc, fossmeet on the plan to conduct an
	 introductory meeting for FUEL during nitc  [22:02]
<j4v4m4n> during fossmeet in nitc
<j4v4m4n> :)
<apeter> :(  [22:03]
<apeter> on last day - 6th?
<jinsbond007> FUEL for Malayalam
<apeter> yes
<jinsbond007> and its not really FUEL for Malayalam we might discuss, 
<jinsbond007> it will be about translation and interfaces and methodology we
	      follow  [22:04]
<apeter> also invite a malayalam department from a good arts college in
	 Calicut
<j4v4m4n> Malayalm translation quality is better than FUEL for Malayalam
<jinsbond007> find out if they can host us for the second session
<j4v4m4n> translation quality, review, community process, getting involved
<apeter> jinsbond007, you mean with the college?  [22:05]
<jinsbond007> apeter: yeah
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: lets think about second session later
<apeter> jinsbond007, okay
<jinsbond007> j4v4m4n: ok
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: may be even in another place
<jinsbond007> apeter: j4v4m4n you see how important is to summarize :)
<apeter> jinsbond007, true :)
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: hmm
<jinsbond007> nobody has any other comment?
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<j4v4m4n> we need to create a press release
<apeter> oh yes
<j4v4m4n> may be posters too
* jinsbond007 interestingly me who haven't done a single translation so far is
  giving lot of suggestions
<apeter> okay  [22:07]
* j4v4m4n anyone who uses translated interface can give good suggestions
<j4v4m4n> sebinaj: can you help with a press release?
<j4v4m4n> ershad: anoop poster?  [22:08]
<jinsbond007> sebinaj: ershad anoop ping?  [22:09]
<ershad> j4v4m4n: Sure, I will try.
<j4v4m4n> ershad: thanks, get help from people on smc list
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<apeter> hope we have covered everything  [22:11]
<jinsbond007> I have a little other translation related issue to discuss
								        [22:12]
<j4v4m4n> apeter: I guess so
<jinsbond007> its of gnu.org translations
<apeter> please go ahead
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: shoot
<jinsbond007> I did a review of 17 or so articles available, and put it up on
	      gitorious, back in november
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: I think we can include that also in the session, if
	  time permits ie, optionally
<santhosh> before that, j4v4m4n we are yet to get our access to  www-ml.. no
	   reply from savannah guys  [22:13]
<apeter> rajeshr, so here we go... Thanks a lot for your time :)
<ershad> j4v4m4n: Ok etta.
<apeter> (guys sorry to interrupt)
<j4v4m4n> santhosh: that we will tackle separately
<rajeshr> thanks apeter :-)   [22:14]
<rajeshr> thanks a lot to all!
<j4v4m4n> santhosh: we should go on #savannah and discuss
<jinsbond007> I think its important that we push the updated translations
	      upstream
<santhosh> rajeshr: thanks!
<jinsbond007> rajeshr: thanks :)
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: yes
<jinsbond007> http://gitorious.org/www-ml-clone
<rajeshr> First time I came here, great community
<jinsbond007> has the current translation
<rajeshr> I learnt lot!
<rajeshr> santhosh, j4v4m4n thanks to you as well!  [22:15]
<rajeshr> jinsbond007, thanks!
<j4v4m4n> rajeshr: great to have you here, thanks!
<jinsbond007> sebinaj: there?
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: let him reply in email or let someone else volunteer
								        [22:16]
<apeter> rajeshr, see you tomorrow :)
<j4v4m4n> lets call it a meeting folks, I have to go and cook!
<rajeshr> okay ani!
<rajeshr> bye all!
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<jinsbond007> j4v4m4n: santhosh the thing is, even in last meeting we decided
	      to do the review and typesetting :)
<apeter> j4v4m4n, thank you. see you tomorrow
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: for www-ml lets go to #savannh and discuss
<jinsbond007> now its 3 nd half months, so shouldn't we start talking about
	      the typesetting and book?
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: ok lets talk then  [22:18]
<santhosh> jinsbond007: how many we have?
<jinsbond007> what articles?
<santhosh> sebinaj had offered some help in review/edit last time
<santhosh> jinsbond007: yes
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<jinsbond007> santhosh: 17
<santhosh> jinsbond007: we had some important articles not translated (IIRC)
<jinsbond007> santhosh: yes, that's what I was writing  [22:20]
<jinsbond007> how should we go about selecting articles?
<jinsbond007> should we do more translation?
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: lets ask for volunteeres for individual articles one at
	  a time
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: send the current list to the list and ask for
	  suggestions
<jinsbond007> j4v4m4n: ok  [22:21]
<jinsbond007> I think I did it two months ago :) will resent the mail once
	      again
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: :(  [22:22]
<santhosh> jinsbond007: I think if we have articles list ready we can type
	   set. we have പ്രസാധനക്കുറിപ്പ്, അവതാരിക...all are ready
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: will discuss it in calicut meeting as well
<santhosh> TT Srikumar had written that
<santhosh> and it even came in Madhyamam weekly that time  [22:23]
<jinsbond007> santhosh: I remember, and just read it again today on the book
	      shyam typeset
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: lets start the tetex/lyx file in our git, if no one
	  willing to work with another format
<santhosh> j4v4m4n: tex is enough.  [22:24]
<santhosh> and jinsbond007 got it working perfectly in his laptop
<j4v4m4n> santhosh: then you do it :) I'm comfortable with lyx - it is latex
	  frontend
<jinsbond007> santhosh: I am facing some issues with the hyphenation, some
	      things are going out of bound
<jinsbond007> checking it out  [22:25]
<jinsbond007> but other wise, I am getting all rendering right
<santhosh> if tex is not working,  pypdflib is there :p
<jinsbond007> lyx I haven't tried, heard its easier to use than tex
<jinsbond007> lemme see, shyam got perfect typesetting, so its not impossible
	      :)
<santhosh> jinsbond007: that did not had hyphenation  [22:26]
<santhosh> j4v4m4n: at office or at home?  [22:27]
<j4v4m4n> lyx is whyswig
<j4v4m4n> santhosh: office
<j4v4m4n> wysiwyg
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: ok choose your format and start typesetting in git
<j4v4m4n> I have to go now  [22:28]
<j4v4m4n> Ich bin hungry!
<apeter> :)
<jinsbond007> j4v4m4n: the thing is, my blood count is up :)
<jinsbond007> so will get admitted soon and will be back only after 10 days
<santhosh> no hurry jinsbond007
<apeter> jinsbond007, take care :)
<jinsbond007> most probably on Monday next cycle will start  [22:29]
<jinsbond007> so if some can review current translation in the mean time, it
	      will be great
<santhosh> apeter: who will put full meeting log? I dont have  [22:30]
<j4v4m4n> jinsbond007: take your time
<apeter> santhosh, j4v4m4n has taken care of it :)
<j4v4m4n> bye everyone  [22:32]
<j4v4m4n> good night
<apeter> good night prabi
<apeter> pravi :)
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